Late Diagnosed AuDHD, Leadership, and What Masking Means To Me with Nicola Knobel

Welcome back to Autistic Techie.

I am super excited today to be joined by Nicola Knobel.

This one is extra special for me because I was on Nicola's podcast a few years ago and we did an episode also all about neurodiversity in the workplace.

And their episode was called Neurodivergence and Autism at Work, Unpacking the Challenges and Triumphs.

And the podcast had a different name back then.

It was called the Let's Break Up Toxic Workplace Stories Podcast.

Now it goes by a different name.

It is called the Safe Tea Podcast.

is S-A-F-E-T-E-A, as in you drink tea in the morning, podcast.

Nicola and Deborah are still the hosts, but I'm so excited to have Nicola on my show this time.

This is one of the few times I get a chance to talk to people who I was on their shows for.

So Nicola, welcome to Autistic Techie.

Thanks for having me, I'm so excited.

I love the full circle.

It makes it feel really like cohesive.

We're coming back to the center and I love it.

I enjoyed our conversation when we talked a few years ago and now I get a chance to talk to you about neurodiversity too.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself please?

sure can.

I am originally from South Africa.

I moved to New Zealand maybe about 15, 16 years ago and I honestly it's the best country in the world so it's for sure it's just amazing and it's beautiful and obviously you know

we filmed Lord of the Rings here and Avatar

and a whole bunch of other really cool movies.

So, you know, we're like middle earth, but better.

um I have been working in occupational health and safety for probably the last 18 years.

I started doing it when I left university.

My amazing superpower is studying.

I now have probably more degrees than most.

I saw your LinkedIn, your cover photo I think had like a bunch of different titles you have.

have BSC, PG cert, OSH, PG cert law, LLM.

You've got it all.

Each topic becomes kind of like a special interest and then it's really entertaining because then I just collect degrees I guess like Pokemon cards.

I almost feel like I laugh about it because I'm almost embarrassed about it because people are like, how do you find time for that?

And I'm like, well, let me tell you about this one time I discovered I was autistic.

So tell us about that, it's a good segue.

How did you end up coming upon the fact that you were autistic for diagnosis or self diagnosis?

What did that process look like?

Well, it was you.

Well, no, wasn't directly you, but it was kind of you.

At the time, was starting to have questions about my son.

And he definitely from a young age had traits that I was like, are these?

These are not.

These are not fitting into the developmental guidelines that I was expecting out of every parenting textbook I've probably ever read.

And after the conversation we had with you on the podcast, I was like, actually, maybe I need to have a look at this from a different perspective.

And we ended up going through quite a long process.

My son was really lucky that he's had a psychologist at school.

that was really helpful with that and we were able to diagnose him with ASD and through that process I was like well maybe there's something going on here too but I don't know if

I feel like this is now that I'm kind of digging into it more and more and more I feel like this happens so often with women is you almost gaslight yourself we like no that's

not something now

frequently is that when parents are getting their children evaluated and seen by a professional, a couple things can happen.

The doctor will be like, hey, maybe you should consider seeing a professional too.

you

the doctor says something off the cuff and you're like, wait, that actually resonates with my experiences very vividly.

I know so many people for whom they bring their kids into the doctor, the doctor like says something or asks a question and they're like, huh, wait, actually, I feel that way too.

And then drum roll, surprise, you're autistic or ADHD.

Exactly.

So yes, I've gone through the process and I've got a combination.

I've got the really cool combination of ASD and ADHD.

More the hyperactivity.

So hyperactivity, but not physical hyperactivity.

It's more the brain that never shuts off, which I feel is I'm still kind of

working out the contradiction between the ASD and the ADHD.

I feel like it's an ongoing, you know, comparative struggle.

So yes, that's kind of how we are here today.

What has surprised you about those ways in which autism and ADHD work against each other?

I think I found that a lot of people, some areas they have this unintentionally positive mesh of autism and ADHD and other places like you alluded to, they pull it opposite

directions.

What has it been like for you?

So when when I was working with the psychologist and he was explaining this to me He was quite surprised that the I almost feel like it's a Jekyll and Hyde situation, right?

So in my mind, this is how I've described The two in my mind.

They're just two different people in my mind So the ASD side has become so

organized.

Like there is layer upon layer upon layer of organization.

I have got calendars up the wazoo and that apparently essentially obliterates the kind of inattentive ADHD side so that's quite an interesting kind of fight against the group.

Yeah it's it's bonkers.

And then one of the ones where it kind of

of comes together really nicely is obviously over stimulation.

The incandescent rage that comes with over stimulation has been quite an eye-opener.

I always just thought everybody had that sort of incandescent rage.

No, no they don't.

So that was interesting to find out.

And I think the hyper focus is probably my

Probably top superpower, I think, is being able to just sit down and I could go for days and not even move.

So I'd say it's great.

And which would you attribute more to your multiple degrees, autism or ADHD, or is it pretty even between them?

I think I get interested in a topic.

I'm like, ooh, new topic.

Like, I don't have a law degree.

Let's study law.

I mean, next minute it's your special interest for the next two years because you're like, what have I done?

And then the autism kind of keeps us going straight down the line of like, we have a plan.

We now have a system.

Let's get this done.

you get to focus on it, you get to be passionate about it.

And the ADHD helps you, the autism is like when you're aiming the cannon and then ADHD is firing and hitting it right into bullseye.

Exactly, it's definitely, I laugh about it because I'm just like, it's so ridiculous.

Like you think about it and you're just like, how has this actually happened?

And I'm curious because when we talked on your episode on your podcast, it was about more general workplace things.

And now you have focused a little bit more on your special interest, I would say, or in your occupation as far as safety for women in New Zealand, which is a very specialized

area.

So how do you perceive...

being a podcast host and producer and being a neurodivergent at the same time, what is that experience like for you?

my co-host Debz, she's got ADHD and anxiety which has been great to work with.

Well I'm sure for her it's not that great but it's great to work with because it means that you are far more understanding and it's you know quite often I'm actually quite

jealous if I'm honest.

She's really good at putting in boundaries whereas I am not.

where she will turn around and be like, actually we can't do today, I'm feeling this, this and this and she can name her feelings and she can put a boundary around it and I'm like,

wish I could do that.

I haven't quite mastered that yet.

And so it's been really good.

It also gives us an opportunity to really highlight for people kind of the differences.

workplaces especially in the health and safety industry it's quite a niche industry and especially for women because quite often you're you know the stereotypical occupational

health and safety guy is a guy and he's usually like a policeman he's mean and grumpy and awful and then you've got yeah usually

then you and Deb come in.

And there's a whole bunch of us that are really kind of engaged with people and put people first or put people centrally to the problem.

And I think that's a very different way of thinking and sometimes people don't like it.

So it's been really, it's been a really interesting process actually.

Do you find that you approach your work or your management style differently because of neurodiversity?

Either before diagnosed or after it?

Or even do you think that you're being neurodivergent directly influences the decision that you make in that regard?

a really good question.

you know I've always I've always had like a list of things leadership wise that I've had that I was like okay I'm doing this tick I'm doing this tick I'm doing this tick and I've

always really wanted to be a good positive leader where you are providing your team

with the tools and skills to get a better job essentially because your job as a leader is to make sure that your your team can then go out and find better jobs in the future and

use the experience that they have at the job they have now for those better jobs.

So I've always worked really hard to make people feel welcome and safe and valued and appreciated and a little pushed as well right like a little pushed but

I've now realized that maybe some of that was a lot of masking to fit into that leadership mold where it was like, I'm working extra hard, probably harder than everybody else to

make sure that I am this type of leader here.

And it was actually after I went to a workshop at work around leadership, and it was before I was diagnosed.

And I was sitting there and I was listening to their talk on leadership and it was really specific.

And at one point I was like, you know, I kind of put my hand up and I was like, why, why have we not considered that all of these traits that you lord or that you hold up high in

leadership, these are not for neurodivergent people.

The

these are not all natural traits.

We work really hard like and at the time I was thinking of my son because he had been diagnosed and I was like you've essentially excluded my son from being a leader in the

future because you want him to do all of these things and yes he can do all of those things but he would it would come at a cost but that doesn't exactly and I'm like but that

doesn't not make him a good leader.

He's going to be an amazing leader when he gets out into the workforce one day.

Like, he's going to kill it.

Sure, his social skills touch and go, but he's going to be an amazing leader in his field.

And I am excited for him and the people that work for him because he is kind, he is compassionate, he's thoughtful.

He's just a little rough around the edges when it comes to feedback potentially.

And not everybody's going to warm to that, but

simultaneously that doesn't mean he's gonna be a shitty leader.

So that was the question I had and they didn't have an answer for me and they kind of brushed it off and I kind of became it became my next special interest was neurodivergency

and leadership and I think

one of my special interests right now.

is like neurodiversity and leadership.

I don't know many people who are leaders and openly neurodivergent.

There's like a handful, but not many who are very out and loud about it.

Exactly, because you know, I have so I've spoken to my manager about my diagnosis.

She is just

I'm very lucky that I have got just the most amazing manager.

She is just so lovely and she's been curious.

She's like, okay, well tell me more.

You know, she's been really interested and curious and she wants to learn more and she wants to do the right thing.

But at the same time, you've still got that really weird stigma around, but you look so organized or normal or you know, but

I wouldn't have been...

you're so extra...

I'm not extraverted, let's just be clear.

um Yeah, I've masked to fit in to make you feel comfortable with whatever situation we're in.

And that is exhausting.

So yes.

like the cost of masking.

What is the cost to you?

What are you putting into it?

What are you, what bones in your body are grinding against each other when you mask in order to produce what you think somebody wants you to do?

And I have paid a lot of cognitive and physical taxes for masking.

And it's exhausting.

It's draining having to do what people expect you to do and...

kind of rebelling against your brain when you know that your mind and body want to do one thing or they have a natural disposition to do one thing and yet you need to do something

else to make other people happy or to placate them because they are inflexible and you have to be the flexible one, which sucks.

it's been so interesting.

And it's been so interesting to see that kind of progress.

And I think, you know, I heard from a ton of people, ton of like community groups or, you know, all of these like influences on Instagram or LinkedIn saying, when you get your

diagnosis, you are going to skills regress.

Boy, boy.

I was like, yeah when you get an when you get the diagnosis apparently when you've been masking for so long you kind of Regress a little bit because you're not quite sure you're

like, all of these weird things I've been doing which are considered socially weird are actually totally normal for me And you end up kind of going kind of back a little bit

before you can go forward and I was like, that's not gonna happen.

I'm

That's interesting.

What I think I'm hearing from that is you've been masking up to this point in time, but you didn't know that you were masking.

And now that you suddenly realized you were masking, you let it down a little bit.

And that appears to people as if you are regressing or being more permissive of things that you were doing before, even when they felt very unnatural.

Exactly.

And I've found that really interesting.

like this week, I said, you know, we had a really challenging team meeting where our team, we've got, I've got an amazing team of women.

And we had to have a horrible meeting this week with a group of people where, you know, with occupational health and safety, there's always something weird happening.

And

sat down and at the end of the meeting the top of my face was actually sore like I had pain in my brow from trying to keep my face straight and at the end of the meeting I said

to my team I was like look going forward I would appreciate if I can like if I don't have to

pretend on something because the fact that I now have a headache from just trying to keep my face in one static

natural face, what did you want to do in that moment?

my God, in that moment I was like...

Okay, you wanted to be animated, you wanted to respond, but.

And there was no way that I could have been animated in that moment, I understand.

But at the same time I was just like, this is actually hurting my body, like trying to not do this.

So I-

to me before.

It's like, I want to react, I want to respond.

And I'm like, no, no, you can't do that as much as you want to.

You can't like show a face, you can't move around, you can't go do something.

You've got to sit here and deal with it.

I, my brain is just like, it's almost like a fight or flight kind of thing.

I don't know how to explain it.

I don't know how to explain it either.

was just like, you become almost robotic because you are putting so much mental energy into not going, wait, what the fuck?

And it's like, yeah.

And it was like, so I said to the ladies at the end, I was like, look, in the future going forward, if this is happening, please...

can we understand that I have the option to switch my camera off maybe?

And then I can, you know, I can be who I need to be on the other end of the camera.

will, I still have the same information that we are sharing with these people.

I've still got the same training and skills.

It doesn't take that away, but it just takes away the shock of my face responding to things that they're saying.

you're spending less energy on your face and more energy, more of your cognitive peace of mind on the work at hand.

Because to be honest with you, when you're dealing with a stressful situation, you want to focus on the work.

You don't want to have to focus on like, I have to keep a straight face when I'm this really troublesome thing.

I genuinely also thought that everybody did that I thought everybody did like a face thing where they were like face face face face face face

Oh, I the way you say that face face face face face.

It's similar to me.

It's like, I have to remember it has to be like a conscious like branding it in my brain kind of thing.

You have to remember to do this have to remember to do that.

Like, don't forget, don't forget, don't let you forget.

I'll write it in my eyelids if I have to.

I know and it's like okay and now relax your face a bit.

It's like where?

it's masking.

It is masking.

it feels formulaic.

It's like you're following a script.

It's like, okay, when they say this, you gotta remember to do this.

When they do this, you have to do that.

It's like, my gosh, give me a break.

so interested.

And I've noticed recently, since I've received my diagnosis, I think the one thing that I've noticed recently that was like really eye-opening is when I get tired, I don't make

eye contact with people.

And especially when they're sitting close to me, it doesn't matter who they are.

could be family members.

Doesn't matter.

I don't make eye contact.

And I have always felt uncomfortable making eye contact when I start getting really tired.

Now I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to stare at

literally anything else.

My trick on Zoom calls and video calls is look at myself and not look at the other person.

That's much more natural to me.

And I think because it's such a COVID focused thing, I have gotten used to only looking at people, only looking at myself.

And like, I see you obviously, I'm looking in your direction, but I'm actually looking at myself in the camera.

But it looks like I'm looking at you, which is what you want.

You want to know that I am looking at you, but in reality, I'm not.

That's my masking.

do the same thing.

I'm glad I'm not alone.

Oh dear, oh dear.

Yeah, masking is like, it's bonkers.

I just, you know, I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine a couple of years ago and she, we had spoken about extroversion versus introversion.

And I said to her, I was like, I really don't feel like an extrovert.

She's like, yeah, but everybody thinks you're an extrovert.

I like, really don't feel like, I'm pretty confident I'm an introvert.

Like I'm 100 % confident.

I hate people.

And I always joke, I'm like, oh, I hate people.

No, can legitimately say I hate people.

But it's like...

hate people, but I think you hate acting the way people want you to behave.

You dislike, you wanna be yourself and not who people want you to be.

Exactly, but I could also spend the rest of eternity alone in a room So I'd be a perfect candidate if you want to do like space experiments like sleep and space experiments I'd be

perfect a small room a little bit of the iPad I'd be great What a choice what a job

I wonder about those things as well.

One of my favorite comics is like, so what do you want to do this weekend?

Nothing.

And I was like, oh, we could do this, this, I'm like, no, I want to do nothing.

And that fascinates people when I say I want to do an absence of things.

I do not want to have anything structured.

And people sometimes take issue with that.

I could just lie down and sleep all weekend.

I'd be happy with that.

me.

I don't sleep in typically like my definition of sleeping in in air quotes is like I sleep till 8am then I'm awake.

Doesn't matter if it's a Saturday or a Tuesday.

I'm just up at 8am.

I know I do midday naps.

think that's my big one at the minute is like midday naps is lovely.

They're so delicious.

Now, besides looking at yourself on zoom cameras, what other workplace hacks or things have you figured out about how you work in the workplace to mask less?

Mask less.

So, I'm so, I'm so silly.

Up until now, I thought that, you know, always thought that I was just overachieving and that I was just kind of giving people extra extra.

But no, we now know that that's not true.

I think one of the things that has helped is I've kind of created like a little how to deal with me workbook.

And I think the key thing that comes out of that is

it doesn't change the work that I do.

It's just a couple of different tweaks here and there on how to respond to different things.

So that way I'm not feeling like, you you hate me.

And we can kind of cover off, you know, just like, if you're seeing this.

chances are high I'm burning out at the moment or if you're seeing these three things it means I'm in hyper focus could you just leave me there for a hot minute and then I will

circle back to you on whatever topic you needed to have.

I love that.

I've heard about that a lot, the working with me document or like a manual me a lot of different names for it.

And I like what you said about like focus mode.

And I have something similar in mind, which has like an exception section, like there are exceptions to breaking me out of hyper focus mode.

If there's a fire and I have to leave the building, if there's free food or if there's dogs or cats, that's the only three reasons.

None of those things.

Except for the fire.

Okay.

Yeah, if the building's on fire, then at this point, like, that's what you do.

That's the safety part of your job.

So that's kind of relevant.

If there's a fire, sure.

If there's dogs or cats, because I work for an organization that deals with babies up until the age of five, we get a lot of babies in the office.

Mmm.

then people are like, cute.

And I'm like, so I'd say like, you know, even if there were babies in the office, leave me to be.

But yeah, it's also been, I think the how, like the how can I help kind of document has been really good because it kind of gives everybody just a clear indication that this is

not, cause you know, there's still that stigma, right?

Like where is, what has Sheldon done to us?

Mm-hmm.

There's still such a stigma around masking as the preferable option?

And I think getting out of that and saying actually I don't have to mask I am a little quirky but it doesn't impact the quality of work or the delivery that I'm presenting I

think and I'm not like you don't have to you don't have to baby me just because I'm telling you that I'm

probably having a shutdown.

The reason I'm having a shutdown is because the tag in my jump is too scratchy, not because you've said something.

I have ruined too many pieces of clothing because I have ripped a tag off before I take a pair of scissors to it or I'll ask my wife to just cut them out for me because I'll

butcher it and mess it up really badly.

And you mentioned like being authentic too.

my wife and I finished watching the most recent season of Love on the Spectrum.

And I have feelings about that show, I have opinions, but I think one thing they've done really well is showcase people being themselves and not masking and just being who they

are, when with other people, with their families in life.

And I think that's such an important thing, just like being yourself and not behaving the way that people expect or want you to behave, but just being.

as natural by geeking out on certain things or wanting to indulge in your special interests and to be honest and kind.

moment my special interest is Japan because we're traveling to Japan in September so I know I'm so excited I'm look I'm really excited but I'm also really anxious about how busy

Japan is like I know like I've seen pictures I feel like it's really busy and I'm worried that I might be like just a lot of people and sounds and smells and I don't know how well

I'm going to do but

there a way you can prepare yourself for that or demo it or test it out?

in the process of doing that like I'm trying to work out what's gonna be because I I hate malls and crowds and I just So I'm have to work out a way to kind of deal with that I

might you know use my noise cancelling headphones a lot more um But my 37 page spreadsheet on all the things we're going to eat is quite an experience but as

because it's my special interest at the moment and because I know that it's going to end up taking too much of my time and I have got priorities of other things this is a hack,

hack of the day is it is my reward research so when I'm feeling really stressed out or if I have done a really like if I've been able to focus on something I'm not super interested

in or if I've been able to finish like a big chunk of work

I will time box like half an hour to an hour of Japan research just to calm myself, use it as, it's almost like using it as a stem, but it's also a reward.

Stimming is stimulation, it's self-regulation.

You're finding your emotional center.

So yes, that's my hack of the day is use it as a reward.

I'm gonna have to borrow that because I or at least just more properly define that because now that that resonates that lands of me like Indulging in something when something else

is stressful

Yeah, where it's like, actually I quite enjoy and you know, I've got a, one of those watches that tell you how stressed you are.

And the minute you start researching something that you're really interested in, the stress just goes, I'm like, this is great.

that.

I do have a smartwatch as well, not as fancy.

My wife's watch tells her how many stairs she's gone up and mine does not do that.

I want to kind of know how many stairs I've gone up.

Hers is a more advanced model of mine.

I've got a Garmin.

love my watch, I also recently got...

because I need to know all the details.

I also got one of the rings as well to watch all the kind of...

yeah, absolutely love it.

It's fascinating.

I don't know what I'm going to do with the data, but...

Well, it was really interesting because I actually thought up until my diagnosis, I actually thought that I was stuck in a cortisol loop.

I was actually...

I was really worried that I was actually unwell.

And I kept going to the doctor and I'd probably gone back to the doctor about four times where I was like actually I'm really not feeling well like I keep getting stuck in this

loop of Not being able to sleep well, like I sleep all eight hours But I'm not sleeping well, like I'm not resting while I'm sleeping.

Like I can see in my heart rate and in my stress levels it's just there's no rest and then I wake up in the morning and I'm just

upset all day, like I'm just stressed all day.

I'm not depressed.

I'm not miserable.

So what's happening?

Like why is, why am I just so stressed all day?

oh And now we have a name.

It's called over stimulation all the time.

and you indulge in the Japan research to help kind of work yourself back from that.

Yeah, couple of things I've been, you know, doing to kind of bring myself back from that.

I've been more vocal about stuff that gets me into that overstimulation space.

I think at the moment the house hates me, all the kids, well, obviously I think everybody hates me, but at the moment I would not be surprised if everybody's grumpy with me because

every two minutes I'm saying something that is just unpleasant at the moment where it's like,

Does that have to be as loud as it is?

Why are you wearing that perfume?

Who has moisturizer in the house that smells like ass?

Like why are we doing this to ourselves?

I improvise with that a little bit too.

And the masking part of me remembers like not to say all those thoughts out loud or to know the right time to say those things.

exactly or never say them and just breathe through the anger and I've found that now that I say these things out loud like those banks of stress during my day have come down

considerably.

I'd love that.

I'm really happy for you.

And I'm happy that you're also aware of that.

You have the ability to reflect as well.

Yeah, that's true.

Nicola, this has been an incredible conversation.

laughed first time I've laughed on the on my own show and I'm glad that we were able to break that ice.

If people want to connect with you and they want to listen to your own podcast, where can they do that?

Best place to find me is probably LinkedIn.

Nice and easy to find me because I've got links to everything from LinkedIn.

I've got a webpage which is nickelandnoble.com and it's just yeah you can find me pretty much anywhere.

Easy to Google.

I'll make sure that I link to your LinkedIn and to your podcast and the show notes for the episode.

Nicola, thanks for being on Autistic Techie.

I had so much fun in this conversation.

This was awesome.

Thanks and thanks for having me.

I really appreciate it.