Every Day a New Neurodivergent Mask with Author & Journalist Kristof Morrow

Welcome back to Autistic Techie.

I have the distinct honor of being joined by Kristof Morrow today.

He is a disabled US veteran, a number one Amazon bestselling author, and an award winning journalist has sold over 2000 copies of his book, The Second Son.

He has Tourette Syndrome, which is something that I'm really eager to dive in and learn from today.

He has been a film director in the past and been someone with a very wide

breadth and depth of experiences that I think are very unique to me and I'm curious to learn more about and share with you.

So, Kristof, welcome to Autistic Techie

Thank you so much for having me, Shea You're very kind.

Shakespeare.

what I'm curious to learn more about is how your experiences have led you to being here.

You have been through a lot and you can feel free to go into as little or as much of that as you want to, but how have your experiences led you to places of triumph with being an

author, with working on films?

How has that led you to those projects?

Well, I think that when you're autistic and you're a kid, I think one of the main points that I wanted to make today actually is it can be addressed now based on the question

itself.

I grew up in a very abusive house and every day the whole notion of masking was a very uh intuitive process for me.

I tried every day a new iteration to get along better with my peers, to find a way to not be abused, to suffer abuse.

And every single day it was a different feature.

I think that part of myself was always studying other people to see what new iterations could be born from watching and understanding people.

And that informs my work today as a writer, as an artist.

Would you say then like, every day is a different mask?

I think that resonates with my experiences.

Do you think that that applies to you too?

Yeah, that Shakespeare.

Absolutely.

Especially because I have so many things that I've tried to so many different communities that I've been a part of, know, trying to cooperate and and and learn from each of them.

You know, I think you understand that for being on your show, your shows.

probably expose you to a lot of lovely people from different walks of life.

Everybody has a different perspective and a different story.

And I think everybody also masks in their own way, whether it is autism, whether it's ADHD, whether it's Tourette's, the way in which different people show up is really vivid

and unique and distinct.

And what I think when we talked about in our first call was about how you kind of had to show up in a different way and show up, whether it was...

with your household, whether it was on the job.

We talked a little bit about your job before.

How has your Tourette Syndrome affected your ability to mask in the workplace and on the job?

What has that looked like for you?

Hmm.

Well, it depends on the tick.

think whenever I have ticks, it really unsettles.

It can really unsettle me and make it difficult for me to, to maintain the, the illusion that I'm trying to, well, maintain, the, the, the personality of the helpful, of the

helpful part of me.

It feels like, because I think as autistic people,

Especially for me, I'm always trying to find a way to serve a purpose because I feel like I'm overcompensating for the fact that I don't have, I don't have the same level of

functionality in other areas.

and it's, it's just, especially as like a reporter, I was, I was always baffled by people getting nervous talking to me because I was just like, I'm just a guy.

I don't know.

I'm not gonna make you look foolish or anything.

I'm not trying to, yeah, Shakespeare.

Do you find that people aren't intimidated to talk to you or that they're scared?

Where do you think people's anxiety is coming from?

Well, when you're a reporter, it's because you're working in that capacity and people are concerned that they're going to look bad in the newspaper somehow because it is a public

record that is maintained and in a physical sense too.

And so it's always going to be readily available for people to see your comments and your thoughts on things.

so the anxiety, I think stems from that, but also because I don't, I have a difficult time trying to comfort people like with that, with that are, that are dealing with anxiety in

that sense.

So, I was always direct with them.

I was always like, you know, I'm not going to make you look like anything.

We're just doing a little paper, a little story about this.

And so.

We're going to go over everything together and this is how I'm going to write the story.

And that usually helps generally.

I'm wondering something that has happened to me and I'm curious the results of you too.

When I say that I'm autistic, people almost back off like, my gosh, I had no idea.

Now I'm worried I'm gonna say the wrong thing or offend you or insult you.

And I almost wonder if people are scared of you if you are a reporter versus worried about doing the wrong thing because of your neurodiversity.

How much do you find it has to do with your occupation versus your distinct brain?

Or is it neither?

That's an interesting question, because I've, I never really disclosed the fact that I was autistic to people.

Shakespeare.

Maybe it was apparent to them.

I don't know.

But so as far as I'm limited in knowing how much my personality or my distinct brain

influenced the way that they felt towards me.

I know that the Tourette's is rather disarming and it makes people feel it has a paradoxical effect.

I feel uncomfortable but they feel more comfortable because I'm like you know what other people would describe as a cripple.

Like you know they they look at me and they go this is this is someone that's not a threat to me.

It's that's that must be a frustrating conversation to have them feel like they can one up you in that way.

I mean, the dynamic, the dynamic, I try to use it to my advantage.

The dynamic allows me to, to, to get more personal with people.

It would allow me to work with people that, that, that normally they feel like, I, I'm not going to weaponize for some reason they didn't think that I would weaponize personal

information.

And I wouldn't of course.

but, that.

people always were much more forward and forthcoming with me.

I remember that.

Are people imposing their image of a reporter on you?

And do you feel like you're being autistic and having Tourette's kind of altered way that you behave as a reporter distinct from what you think a traditional reporter looks and

sounds like?

I think it's both.

I think that it did work to influence the way that I interacted with people having Tourette's and being autistic.

The way that I interacted with people was as a reporter was markedly different from my peers.

And also, but the reverse was also true.

that it did actually have an effect on the way that I interacted with people.

Do you find that you've been able to click more with neurodivergent peers, whether you know they were neurodivergent or not?

Yeah, neurodivergent people, I think, sort of get it.

There's something I wrote once that greatness is the birthright of obsession.

And I think that a lot of autistic people do well in that sense because of the obsessive nature that can be born from being autistic in the first place.

yeah.

I hear a word in there that resonates with me, like stubborn.

people ask me like, how are you good at these and these these and things?

And I'm like, it's my special interest.

There's no other way I would be good in it because I'm so doggedly determined to know and learn everything about it.

Ergo, I must be really good at it.

And that also intimidates people, but it can also fascinate them that one person can have such a strong, vibrant interest in a topic.

What are your special interests and what are the things that you have really aspired to be great at?

My Shakespeare, my special interest is my work as a writer, as a fiction writer.

I obsess about it more than I think about it more than anything else.

I like to say that I love my work more than the sum of my love for all other things.

Because I understand it.

For some reason, it makes sense to me.

It's like music.

It's as natural to me as

as understanding and feeling and experiencing music.

Yeah, words are magic, I think.

How much of the way that you work, like the actual process of doing that, is a function of really enabling that behavior to occur without any limitations, whether that is

accommodating around ticks, whether that's self-regulation, whether that's taking breaks.

How much of the way that you work is molded around you just knowing what works for you?

And what are some examples of that?

Hmm.

I think I understand the premise of the question.

think, Hmm.

Like having, having turrets, have the fewest amount of ticks when I'm working and, but being autistic, I think, I facilitate, with everything outside of actually working.

Yeah, like wanting to study and wanting to read more about different topics that will in some way inform my work.

Yeah.

That's helpful.

What I'm more curious to learn about is like, I'm assuming you work from home.

I'm assuming that you have like your setup, your setup that works for you, whether it's low lighting, whether it's good headphones, whether it's a nice chair, like whatever way

your brain or your body works, you have a way that you like to work that helps you glide smoothly.

Yeah, I actually, it's funny because I'm, I am the least, I have no impositions in that sense.

I can work anywhere, like on my phone.

I've written on my phone.

I've written on laptops in cafes, all because of, because of my medication.

I take medication for ADHD and a number of other conditions.

And,

That really helps to facilitate my work anywhere.

So I can get really absorbed.

But generally, I'm at my desk.

The desk that I'm at right now, actually.

Sorry, go ahead.

No, I'm sorry.

I was just going to say that I'm jealous of your ability to work from anywhere.

For me, I have a setup.

I have a place that I like to go.

So like, if you go into a cafe, can you do that headphones or no uncomfy chair or no like you're just you're sucked in?

Is that more what it is?

It's more about what you're doing and not necessarily where or how.

Yeah, I'm not limited.

I'm not limited at all.

I think that the obsessive part of me really enables me to do that kind of work from wherever.

However, it's really great.

I am really jealous of that.

How do you think that your passion for the actual kind of work that you do resonates within your life?

Like do people recognize it as a special interest of yours?

Do they not approach the subject?

Is it a...

How much do people know that it is your passion?

Well, whenever I sell a book, it doesn't matter how many books I've sold that day or that week.

Every time I find out that I sold another book, I freak out a little bit and go, guys, guys, I I told my friends, I sold a book.

I sold another book.

And they're like, that's great.

like, yeah, I, yeah, yeah, they do.

They celebrate.

They're, very, they're very pleased with.

with, with it's the report from readers and stuff.

and encouraged too.

but every, everyone knows, I think, because I, I am so, contemplative and, and I spend so much brain power, trying to structure everything I'm saying in a way that's sensible and

compelling.

and lasting.

Do you find that you have to give a lot of thought to what you're saying before it actually gets said?

How much of your processing time is spent just piecing the words together versus actually saying them?

Hmm.

I'd say it's about, I'd say it's about 50 50.

I I spend, I spend the first half of the first half of my brain, trying to formulate there's there.

See, the thing is that there's, really find the romance of words, using words that are on the edge of our collective lexicon in a sense.

Like, so there's words that we use all the time that

our relationship with them changes.

And for me, using a word that's that you're familiar with, but in a novel way, I spend so much of my brain power trying to find that perfect word to describe the experience,

describe whatever it is I'm trying to relay or impart.

Interesting.

I found this a very autistic experience where so much time is spent just trying to make trying to get the rest of the world to understand what it is that we are saying because we

have all the thoughts in our head, but it can sometimes come off as word soup.

I describe it as word soup because sometimes it just can be a jumbled mess.

that if you don't think about what you say, do you find that that resonates with you at all?

Yeah, think parts of this interview for me is sometimes I sometimes I lose my lose the thread.

And I'm trying to I'm trying to turn it around and find a way to redeem the thought.

And I think that you we spend

especially autistic people, spend so much of our lives being misunderstood, like you said, that we become so much more particular about the way we communicate.

And that leads to a kind of, I think, a helpful rigidity in the way that we, in the way that, I think that language,

translates with other people that are autistic, they get it.

When you're being careful with your words, they can sense that because of the way that you've been received in the past.

The language is a form of masking, the way that you say something you characterize or describe in a way that makes sense to other people because that's how you think they want

to hear you.

But for autistic people, we can lob a lot at them and we have a surprisingly high ability to understand it, even if it takes a while.

Like I do the same thing.

I'll have a thought as you, I'll have a thought, I'll lose track of it and I'm like, where did that thought go?

It's gone, it's at the station or...

as one of my D &D players call it.

They call it their mind stables.

The thought will bump around in my mind stables and it'll vanish and I'll have to go roaming the pastures to try to find it again.

gosh, that's amazing.

I love that analogy.

m

with it.

I have to thank one of my D &D players for that.

this bobbing around to the mind, this bobbing around to the thoughts, it happens to me on my job, it happens to me in my life.

I have to really laser in and focus on this thought, otherwise it vanishes completely.

And I think you hit on a really important point that I'm curious to hear more about.

It almost feels like another language talking from one autistic person to another.

versus autistic people than our typical people.

Can you say more about your experience of that?

I'm really curious.

Yeah, I think, I think that it's in the register.

think that it's in the, it's in the way that we approach having a discussion in the first place, where, with neurotypical people, they're able to generally, more helpfully

summarize things in a way that's pat, like that's digestible, to other neurotypical people.

But for people that are autistic, there's a special way you have to communicate certain qualities of whatever it is you're saying.

Like, we take things more literally, for example.

And so do you like you when you are autistic and you know that you're already in your head, you're saying, no, that's too literal.

That doesn't quite work to explain it that way because it will be misunderstood.

So you find a way around it.

to explain whatever it is you hope to impart.

Some people like the flowery and some people don't.

I was just driving the other day, was with somebody, they were giving me directions.

But they weren't giving me directions literally, they were like being flowery and very whatever and I'm like, just tell me whatever the phone says, please, because I can't

understand you.

And I wanted to...

I wanted to my hair out a little bit because I was like, I just need to know where to go.

But you're telling me everything else and I don't know if I need to make this left or the next one.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's yeah, I have a difficult time accepting Instructions in that sense from my from my girlfriend, which is really funny.

It's really funny that you brought that up

Instructions are fine for me.

Like if my wife tells me something very specifically, if she says like, go do the litter box, go to get the trash or something, I will go and do that thing.

And I can still improvise and I can ask her questions.

It's like, if we need to replace the little baggies and our little scooper, do I need to go replace those?

Yes.

Like I have the ability to improvise based on what I'm doing.

But sometimes she'll give me a direct task and I'll be like, well, you wanted me to do this thing, right?

And she's like, well, yes, but also these other things.

And I'm like, just tell me.

exactly because if you don't say it I might not fully understand.

Is that like your girlfriend at all?

not so far.

We've only been dating for almost, it'll be going on six months.

and so far we haven't really, the only time that it's ever come up is the driving instructions.

You know, like she is in the passenger seat going, you know, and offering, you know, helpful instruction, but like in a way that's, I can't receive, in a productive way.

So.

Mm-hmm.

How has the topic of neurodiversity come up with your girlfriend?

How receptive were they to the conversation around it?

Hmm.

I don't know if we've ever really talked about it.

We accept that, except that, um, you know, like I, she knows about my Tourette's, and there's, she's, she's very,

I don't want to say forgiving.

Forgiving is the wrong word.

But accepting of whenever I have tics in certain times when we're together.

And there's times, the fact that she has, she is seeking a diagnosis for ADHD, I think.

And

she's so in that sense, I think that she, she understands a lot of my struggles.

Cause I have ADHD.

I love that you're able to really click with each other.

And my wife is also very accepting.

If I'm feeling a little overwhelmed or need to take a break, she's really good about letting me dial the back.

And I'm glad that you found your person and your girlfriend.

Yeah, she it's actually it's actually funny that bring it now.

Now I remember she's I can tell when she's getting overstimulated.

And so I I like when the music's too loud or whenever she has a lot going on, like if she's at the airport, for example, you have to know when your flight's coming.

You have to know that you're at the right gate.

You have to know, like, OK, do need to go to the bathroom?

Do I need to eat?

Do I need to do this?

So there's so many.

And there's the speakers going off and people around her and, I got to watch my luggage.

You know, there's, and I was like, I was on the phone with her once and I was like, are you overstimulated right now?

And she's like, yeah, a little bit.

And I was like, okay, it's okay.

We can talk later.

So we talked later.

she's lucky to have you too.

It sounds like you compliment each other very well.

My wife and I joke that the two of us together make one fully functioning adult.

I am good at some things and she's good at other things.

And we compliment each other very well.

Like she's very organized.

She's good at getting us out of the house.

I'm detail oriented.

I'm good with the calendar.

I'm good us out on time.

But the joke that I love to make is that,

I have a sense of distance, I have good depth perception, but my wife is better at perceiving how long things actually take to go.

I'm terrible estimating, like, it'll take us an hour to get there, and then it does not take us an hour, either shorter or longer.

She's way better at that than I am.

And that is one way that we form a fully functioning adult.

Yeah.

Hmm

this has been an incredible conversation.

I laughed, I cried, and I felt awesome to have talked about this whole conversation with you.

If people can find you on the internet, if they want to buy your book and learn more about you, where can they do that?

Shakespeare.

I'm on TikTok and I have a website, kristofmorrow.com which has links to all of my social medias and stuff.

I'll make sure that I link all of that on the show notes and in the podcast platforms.

Kristof, this was a great conversation.

Thank you so much for coming on to Autistic Techie.

Thank you for having me, Shea that was really kind.